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Discussion in 'Other Substances' started by Joshstillclean, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    So much debate over kratom. Kind of reminds me of the pot debate going on a few years back. of course smoking pot isn't good for you-after all your putting carbon monoxide into your lungs...
    Cannabis oil ( or even CBD oil if you don't like or need THC ) can however be a lifesaver for some.
    It has been proven to help with pain, help REVERSE small cell cancers --media doesn't tell you that one. Has the ability to help those with crippling anxiety and depression function a normal life. Can stop seizures in their tracks...I would know because I use it for every single one of these things except cancer, which my dad did and he is doing wonderful now. Many other benefits if not abused. But it can be abused and many do. I am afraid I am guilty of many years of that. I still am coughing up tar. I haven't smoked in over a year.

    Alcohol was made illegal for years before the government decided that they just couldn't stop the production of it so they might as well sell it and tax it! Great plan! Except that it allowed me to be an alcoholic by the age of 18. Abusing it at 15 heavily. Now like I just said all things can be abused and I do have a history of abusing just about everything. So if not abused let's look at the health benefits this narcotic ( I'll call it that since that is what the THC in marijuana is classified as a class one narcotic-just like Heroin) has. If red wine is consumed in moderation then it can be beneficial to your kidneys and help your digestive tract stay free of some harmful bacteria. It can help you relax, at the end of the day. I suppose it can help with sleep-although it has always made me hyper in moderation. I honestly cannot think of another health benefit. I actually Googled it. Even with "health benefits" isolated in the search bar all I came up with was rehab offers and helplines. Some of which I recognized because I had called them myself in the past. This site also came up. I'm honestly trying to give alcohol a fair shot here and it didn't turn out very well. Alcohol goes down in my book as THE SUCKIEST DRUG you can purchase without a prescription. That only second to the legal benzos- which are the worst. By Far.

    So now for the kratom. I have done a lot of research over the past few nights and I am now convinced that my convictions need a second thought. I have a very large and mixed up word document full of notes and articles and even a couple of e-mails that I moved over that I received back from two reputable distributors. I will finish this post tomorrow and put my collected findings together, here in this thread. Before I do I'm waiting to hear back from a compounding pharmacist that I know who has a lot of knowledge on this plant. I want to know if it can help internal organs function that are opioid dependant. I still do not have an answer to that question.

    But I have now posted the thread I said I would and invite all opinions and thoughts. I hope this will invite some friendly conversation while i'm compiling my findings. I'm still on the fence.
    Being opioid dependant on Subutex however I really would think it would be great if there were an herbal answer to my kidney problem. Trading benzos for plant oil, opioids that I'm already relying on for another plant seems kinda like a "vegan" version of my solution. Taking medication. Yes this plant is addictive. Ever seen someone detox off of Subs? So I'm not very concerned about that since I have already ruled out for certain that this is not as bad of a detox. My doctor thinks it should be legalized and studied and used.

    What do you think?
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  2. deanokat

    deanokat Community Organizer Community Listener

    I'm all for studying it thoroughly. But I worry about it being made out to be some kind of "miracle drug" and having a lot of people start using it if we don't know what the possible side effects/long-term issues are. I agree with what the doctor says in the article at the link below: "“It’s a fascinating drug, but we need to know a lot more about it." (Yes, another link!)

    Kratom, an Addict’s Alternative, Is Found to Be Addictive Itself

    I'm curious to hear what others think.
  3. Dominica

    Dominica Recovery Advocate @ Moving Beyond Codependency Community Listener

    @Joshstillclean great that you're doing some research. i don't know enough to make an educated opinion. i have heard some say it works great for them and others say it was horrible. could vary from person to person and on various factors...

    but great topic... and interested to see what you come up with.
  4. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    i'll read it.
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  5. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    Update: I just finished work for the day. I was not expecting that to take so long. I'm tired, I'm going to bed and I'll do my best to get to the rest of my post tomorrow.
  6. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    Cool I didnt know you made this yet.
    I too have done alot of research and I believe for me it works good. As one poster said the worst side effect I have experienced so far is a headache.

    I'll say that I have been using kratom but a very small dose. I seen recommendations of up to 5 to 10 grams a dose, I take 1 gram twice a day For the past 11 days. The effects are great for motivation and energy and normally I dont even feel it wear off kinda like caffeine does. You just kinda notice like 6 hours later that hey I'm not moving as fast as I was. I do not wake up feeling any different and only use it for the energy and motivation. I'd say as far as withdrawal I might have noticed a few hot flashes that lasted maybe a minute or two and went away. Then slept like a baby after not having any since say 5pm.

    I can say for a certainty that at least me personally do not crave Kratom like I would a pain pill or an opiate even though it has opiate like alkaloids.

    I can say for certain that I did crave my subs and any opiate I took in the past.

    Like with anything in life moderation is key.
    We have to be able to control our habitual nature of any substance or addictive bad behaviors will continue to hinder us.

    I refuse to believe and live in a way that I have to go throw life worried about whether I'm strong enough to be able to put something down if its causing harm to me.

    I am the master of my own thoughts and universe. I can do anything I put my mind too.

    I dont want to hide from everything and hope that some substance dosnt come near me. I am strong and mindful of my body and well being if you put a pain pill in front of me today I'd smash it and throw it in the trash. Opiates are the only addiction for me that was hard to overcome but I did it and I'm not worried about it ever again because now I know what to feel and look for in a harmful substance and just because I like something I refuse to turn a blind eye to it. My promise to myself is I will remain honest with myself.

    I love you guys be strong and informed.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  7. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    i have so much data compiled on kratom. you know what? i compared it to the data i had from before i went on-actually it was after i went on subs. i didn't even care about the side effects, or how addictive it was or heck, if it was gonna kill me in a year. i was so dope sick from methadone that i just needed relief.
    i cannot describe how bad it was. @True concern posted his story of screaming in agony and he's not far off.
    the only thing i would say about his story is that it is excactly like that EXCEPT...worse than any words can describe. unless you've lived it then you just don't know. it is a life or death matter to the addict.
    think about that. for anyone who has not experienced this think about being in such awful pain that you begin to hallucinate and wonder if you've died already. you can't drink water. if you didn't have an iv for hydration you'll die because if you do keep water down it just comes out of your rectum like urine..

    i only say this to say true described withdrawal better than i've ever heard it described. and even then-it's worse than words can say.
    and i say all of this to make this point. when you are dependant on something like that you are a little more willing to try something like kratom to see of it helps with withdrawals.
    or to see if it helps your kidneys function again. i talked to my friend the compounding pharmacist. he has seen lots of people come off of opioids with the use of CBD oil and Kratom. He does not condone long term use of kratom, but he claimed the people that he has helped have been able to kick a habbit a lot faster than with methadone and suboxone. and most people ( like me now ) end up stuck on them for a long time- or life. imagine that.
    i go monthly to have my bloodwork taken because thats just what you do when your in my situation.
    i decided screw the research. if you read the resaerach on Suboxone or Methadone, you'd say NO WAY! that stuff is stronger, more addictive and harder to come off of than Heroin!!!!!
    and you would be right! so since the major cons that has everyone against kratom are these --addictive, can interfere and cause death with other meds, can cause respiratory depression (which i think has been de-bunked), has a tendency to lead to abuse, causes depression upon ceasing and other mild stuff, i'm not worried.
    side effects of SUB--DEATH. first one. well that's a whole lot of B.S. too. but i know that i have read the most rediculous things about pot that i discredit everything the person says. because of one "Dr.s" claim that too much pot can indeed cause death i discredit everything else he says. He is stupid. must own some big pharma stock or something...
    i have two weeks left until i get my bloodwork done this time around. today i DID NOT take subutex. i took a low dose of kratom. i am having cravings for subs, but not intense. i will continue to see how this goes, if i feel bad, or my kidneys hurt then i will stop taking it and go to Subutex which i don't want to do.
    i have my doctors approval. it is legal here and he is all for natural. he did warn me to not abuse it. he told me to use as little as i could like the subutex (which you can shoot up and get higher than the moon).
    i do not feel anything from the kratom. nothing. the only thing i can say is i don't feel anything from not having the sub except for cravings.
    so since i talked to my dr and if i dont take the sub while i take the kratom then he's ok with it. i will make my judgement on it when i get the results from my bloodwork back. if they are good. great.
    if they are not as good as when on the subs, well, crap. i give up and i'll stop trying to fight big pharma.
    i was writing a post referencing the effects and the bad stufff that can happen if you over do kratom and then i looked at the side efects of the suboxone, and it was like a lightbulb.
    a plant grows out of the ground...
    we have money to study inverting penises and turning them into vaginas, but we can't study this possibly life saving herb that could benefit opioid sufferers?
    stupid! so with my doctors approval i'll be the lab rat. I bet i get good results too. by the way, three doses of 1.2 grams from a very reputable supplier. i have felt nothing all day. to be honest i did expect to feel something. but no. i just didn't feel bad. and that's good enough for me.
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  8. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    Nice man I pray you find a healthier alternative to pharmaceuticals. So far it's working good for me and soon you'll be feeling better too. From mostly what I have read you'll probably want to research your dose more to use it coming off bup till you stabilize then taper some. Even 2 grams is a low dose.
  9. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    yeah,, just tryig to keep everything as low as possible. motivation is one thing i reall struggle with. i hate to say it but i mean i reall, really struggle with getting myself going. especially since i have come off of the full blow agonist opiods...
    to be honest i have thought about going back to methadone for that very reason. but i know it would just keep taking more and more. and with methadoone i was xuper energetic the forst half of the day- then was sleep the rest of the day. so i decided that was not a good idea.
    but i know that in lower doses kratom has more of the stimulant effect and in higher idses it has more of the hard hitting opiate effect. so if i can find a happy middle then alll is well. tha's what i'm going for. honstly that's what i crave most from the subs is the motivation i get from them.
    --you know what i'm talking about.
    anyway i did wake up this mornin in a good bit of subutex withfrawal. very uncomfortable. took same dose as yesterday about an hour after waking up and about an hour after that-ehich is when i'm writing this-even my snifffles are gone.
    i do feel energetic. but so far that's all i feel. and this has not increased in any way my deire for more opiods or stronger opiods.
    people who relapse on this would relapse on a tylenol half of one. the horrible heroin like effects that this plant is said to mimic in some articles is a lie. it does not. mabey if you have no tolerance then it would. but then if you have no problem then why would you be taking it anyway?
    i don't condone recreational use and until i get my bloodwork back i'm still on the fence about medicinal use.
    but so far, from what i'm experiencing personally, if you are wanting to feel the opioid high, with are going to be very dissapointed.
  10. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    well, that was probably the shortest lived medical test ever.
    as far as kratom working to stop withdrawal from subs, it's ok. i suppose i could have given it longer. but i was on a very low dose, and i started to notice depression between doses. i have not even been on this stuff for three days.
    i remember writing a post about a friend of mine who i took to get some dope because i thought he was coming off of opium. no it was kratom he was detoxing from. i happen to notice that he was taking a lot a whole lot more than recommended. so i was willing to give this plant a fair shot. see what it had. subs do not make me depressed between doses. i do not suffer from depression.
    i remember that my friend had something going on in his head that was different from other standard opium abuse symptoms. i told myself that it was because of the copious amounts he was taking.
    well a few days into this i start to experience depression. i am not going down the depression road. been there, done that. not for me.
    so, i tried and now i can say - from personal experience - that i hate kratom. i did experience energy. i did experience relief although not completely from sub withdrawal. but i will not start on something that is going to make me depressed.
    i think i was right to begin with. i know others say it helps them, and more power to them. i can say this drug is nowhere near as dangerous as they make it out to be. it's really really weak. it's ike a 5 mg percoset compared to a line of roxycontin. it's rediculous to even put them in the same catagorie.
    but i hate depression. so i will no longer be taking kratom. and i am back on my subutex and will stay that way. at least until something else other than kratom comes along to offer some relief.
    @Onceaddicted77 i hope this works out for you better than it has for me. mabey it just doesn't agree with my body i don't know. but i do know that i do not have depression problems. i am positive the kratom is what caused it. i feel better now and it's been about 8 hours since i've had any. i just caution you my friend to look out for any mental effects this is having. because honestly i felt no sort of anything body wise. just energy, and then on day three depresssion krept in.
    my doctor told me that anxiety was a possibility since i have issues with that and if i noticed that to stop immediatly. i will report the depression thing to him monday morning.
    best of luck to everyone and that is my experience with kratom.
    i don't like it. i don't want to be on subs either but at least i don't get depressed between doses.
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  11. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    Well atleast you gave it a shot brother maybe it's best used in the occasional setting. It had been 60 days before I started on it maybe is why I havnt noticed any depression from it. A friend of mine used it to get off subs but he would use the kratom in the day and take a small micro dose of sub at night. The half life of kratom in only about 3 hours and buprenorphine which you probably know is 37 hours which is why the real withdrawls start on the 3rd and 4th day.
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  12. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    i can deffinately see where this sould have medicinal qualities. for certain. but depression, and me, not a good mix. actually i am today back on a full dose of subutex. i have my earbuds in as well. it hadn't occured to me but i had no desire to listen to music while i took it. i had energy, absolutely. but that's about it. and i'll give it this too. i didn't crash and get jittery like on coffee. i'm sure it has it's rightful place on the medicine shelf. but just not for me, not right now.
    music is my fuel man. like you here people at the methadone and sub clinics say that that's there gasoline- well music for me is where it's at. if i'm not listening to music then that's a sign something is wrong. my son actually brought up this morning that he had noticed i wasn't wearing my earbuds the last coupe days.
    i had not thought about it. so as soon as i took it it had an effect on me.
    i'm not going to knock it at all. and i am sure that alot had to do with sub w/d's. but i have experienced can't get out of bed depression twice in my life-when i got divorced and didn't want to, and when i went through xanax withdrawal. i will do everything in my power to avoid that feeling ever again.
    anxiety can be crippling, and for me it used to be. but that depression,wow. i feel really bad for people who have it just because. i honestly think that would make me suicidal. i really do. same way i'm afraid to detox again, that's how i'm afraid of deression.
    i thank God everyday thats one thing i don't have to struggle with. so since kratom (maybe) had something to do with it, i am done trying kratom. at least i know what to expect if i had to cold turkey subs.
    i do not regret my experiment though because now i can speak from experience.
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  13. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    Right on brother well I think you did right thing for sure we gotta listen to our body and mind and do what's best.
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  14. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    thanks man. always positive and supportive. i appreciate that.
    you can listen and understand without being judgmental. that's a character quality i admire.
    how are you doing today BTW?
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  15. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    I am doing well thanks for asking I'm inbetween tile jobs atm so it's a little stressful but I'm managing I got work coming up so that's a plus.

    Depression is a pain in the ass I've dealt with it so long I only feel when I'm not depressed now I think heh

    Normally I know my serotonin and dopamine levels are normal when I'm in not so much pain when they are low my hips and legs are so weak it's crazy.
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  16. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    i used to lay hardwood and tile. we did carpet work also but a actually enjoyed ceramic tile. i think it's because we were usually woring around a better part of town when we laid ceramic tile. that was when i was 18 though. i did it in the evenings when i was done working at my dads. I can't imagine walking up stairs with a box of tile now and then being on my knees all day. more power to you.
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  17. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    Cool you used to do it too. Man it's hard work sometimes I'm on my 24th year started with my dad when I was 17. I honestly dont know how much longer I can do it and i have no retirement plan lol
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  18. Joshstillclean

    Joshstillclean Stupidity Exists - Fact.

    retirement is something i really need to start thinking about. i am good at saving money. i have no problem with that. in fact i have the opposite problem. i hate getting off of money. but i need to invest. the way the economy is and the fact that i think we are on the brink of a world war there is no way i'm investing in stocks.
    i used to do well investing in cars and flipping them. if i can find time i think i'm going that route again. need to get my dealers license back. but i need to get something going quick. retirement is something that i've seen a lot of people procrastinate on and end up seriously regretting it. i would like to retire by fifty.
    that's not impossible. i don't hold to the "retirement age". i think you should be able to do whatever you want in your 60's. not still pulling a 9 to 5. that's just not what i want to do.
    so many people don't do that too. you just don't hear about them often. but there are a lot of people who are retired by 50. my papa did it. my other grandpa did it and he was born in 1920 and only had an eigth grade education. they both woned their own buisness. that was the key. my dad did it in his 50's. and he could have done it sooner if it were not for my rehab expenses. i think my mom is about to throw in the towel. she deserves it too.

    it can be done. i know it.
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  19. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    Yea it can be done but it's hard doing it all. I'm trying to branch out and take on more General contracting, Tile is just so artistic atleast for me. I'm such a perfectionist it's hard for me to let and trust guys do my work. I think that's probably why I work on my own cars and do everything myself. I rebuilt my own transmission last year everything is self taught. Unfortunately this I believe has hindered me as much as its helped.

    I like to learn new things and have challenges but if I'd spent that time on my business and let people do that stuff I'd probably be alot better off right now.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  20. Onceaddicted77

    Onceaddicted77 Spam fighting Moderator & Realist Community Listener

    I ve been messing with cryptocurrency for the past 2 years got in at 3500 on bitcoin and I do some trading on the the exchanges for alt coins. It's a wild ride for sure lol

    I'm still kicking myself because I'm a computer nerd lol I've been on them since the commodore 64 before x86 computers. I'm a gamer too so I've been building my own Pcs forever. Well long story short I messed with bitcoin when it was only worth a dollar. I lost my wallet address and I don't remember how many I had but it's worth alot today and it's gone forever lol
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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